iCharts Discussions

[mania]

Only +ve trades had been talked/followed a lot.. not much talk about -ve ones... If the subject topic word fools had been replaced with more suitable word, then it would have become a good topic for discussion...

Everyone is asking for a proof with TA indicator/system blah blah.. market does n't work that way... don't give an illusion to newbies that you could make money in market... Most of well known candlestick pattern fail and they were all shown just to trap the people.... literally it is a war... one day you win and other day you loose.....

"buy above xx sell below xx " look very staright forward at the end of the day..bcaz the market always on the move... but when you are in the trade, if the stop is hit, how many of them are reversed their positions.. even if you reverse position for the first time, what happens if the stop hit for the second time....

Discipline and money management are all easy to write, but difficult to follow, each one has to experience them and learn from it... But once you learn, do you have capital to start the next chapter... almost all trader who r still in the market, were able to come back alive after their the biggest fall/drawdowns... some even quit trading to raise capital and then made their living out of trading...

So do your home work.. don't look for reason for everything.. like why market behaved irrationally on the expiry day.. bcaz no one knows the answers... BTW, some people very much like to trade on expiry day to catch these sharp moves...

Learn from Swan, take the good ones.. leave the bad ones... life moves on..

[misscrore]

Mania ... the topic of fools was in reference to the the race many are running for and doesnt refer anyone in person ...

[ajayhkaul]

Technical Analysts/chartists are the astrologers of the stock (and other) markets !!!

[vinay28]

et tu, Ajay?

If msscore's intention was to lure suckers into a trap, he surely seems to have succeded.

[rk_a2003]

Oh! No one has time for guessing it

Ok! It was a real survey made on Traders. The reason for Pilots being successful Traders is…

Pilots training teach them to act as per the predetermined manual which instructs them to act in a specific manner during each and every specific situation or combination of the situations. It's all most not required for them to use their discretion except in very rare occasions.

That’s why they are very good at implementing the strategies .since a strategy is like a set of instructions to be followed like when to get in when to get out and when to book the profit. They obviously excelled in trading by following them meticulously.

[ajayhkaul]

Thanks RK .... you have conveyed a crystal clear message that either the trader gets as disciplined as a pilot or its self sabotage !

Hey Vinay -- its true isn't it ? Astrologers also look at charts and patterns to make predictions( probabilities).

And then the successful trader 'pilots' his trade.

[misscrore]

So discipline becomes important .... Ain't it?

[ajayhkaul]

misscrore.... a trader will not lose because of the strategy that he adopts (from the threads or anywhere else)

I mentioned that 98% of the traders fail and the reason is that they SELF SABOTAGE

Number 1 symptom of a trader who is on 'mission self sabotage' :

find someone to blame or curse ( the dog, mom-in-law, computer glitch, other traders etc)

No 2 No trading plan( the pilots manual as RK described) written down or not following the plan

No 3 Psychological reasons esp how he relates to money and his emotional response when he wins or loses

No 4 Trading with sacred money

etc etc etc ..

The problem , as mentioned earlier is that there is NO BARRIER TO ENTRY ! Anyone can get started with absolute freedom and trade unsupervised till his capital runs out.

You know how tough it is to be selected to be a surgeon or a test Pilot ?
They are a rare breed and no prizes for guessing the percentage of candidates who make the grade .

Again.....Why should trading be any different ???

[rk_a2003]

[ProTrader]

Are we in Fool`s Paradise

[vinay28]

Very few people like pilots are mandated to go as per set procedures only. They are not allowed to act on their own except in case of extremely adverse situations. In other words they are supposed to act like robots most of the times.

The moment human element comes into picture, errors and misjudgements surface. Therefore, one could say that all humans are fools since they do some kind of trading in all aspects of life all the time.

Hell, I too became a sucker!

[opportunist]

Arrey bhai log trading is just like playing cricket. You can have a grand strategy sitting in the dressing room but what matters is how good you are at playing it out on the field. If you have inferior batsmen and bowlers and lazy inefficient fielders you cant win the match even if coached by Gary Kirsten and helped by his team of psychologists and physiotherapists ...no use.

Similarly a great bunch of talented batsmen and bowlers will lose match to an inferior side with better strategy. SO STRATEGY MATTERS ! But only after you gain the minimum skill to bat, bowl and field.

In cricket the minimum skills required are a) knowing the rules of the game (ha! even 5 year olds know it nowadays) b) knowing how to play shots to score runs c) how to bowl at a reasonable line and length d) how to field to stop runs from being scored and dismiss by taking catches. One may improve these skill sets by net practise but that will improve him till a point .

Beyond that you need strategy.

So what do we do in Strategy? Decide whether the team should bat first or ball first if it wins the toss (depending on pitch, weather etc.) ? What should be the batting order (where should dhoni bat ? no.4 or no.6?) How to rotate bowlers to manage their fatigue? How to utilise the new ball? How to eliminate an important batsmen with your best bowler before he finishes his quota of overs ? etc. These are the elements of cricketing strategy.

So strategy is the best utilisation of your available skills in order to increase your chances of winning the game.

Translating into trading parlance the trader must have the minimum skillset which is a) idea of the market, b) which kinds of securities he should play, c) cost of brokerage d) some basic TA rules like resistance and support e) how he should he manage his money using SL and position sizing etc.

Then comes strategy. When should he enter and exit? And you have thousands of ideas floating around...from exotic stuff like Gann and Delta to intelligent ones like candle stick patterns to dumb ones like sell a tick below support and buy a tick above resistance - all very effective.

So you see skill and strategy are both sides of the same coin if one wants to win this game. You cannot have one without not having the other. What the proponent of this thread pointed out was that we harp too much on strategy when basic skills are missing in traders. That is a sad situation.

But as rk, ajay have pointed out on their discussions, we have schools for pilots and surgeons but not for traders. At least in India. We have occasional high priced seminars for a day at a 5 star hotel and that's it. Theories of finance (which includes equities and derivatives) taught at B-school do not help in the stock market game (at least did not help me).

So if anyone wants to improve the situation s/he should start a school to train traders. I bet there will be a mad rush.

PT bhai get the idea ?

[ajayhkaul]

So much free education in this thread!!!

Lucid explanation from opportunist.

However ".....So if anyone wants to improve the situation s/he should start a school to train traders. I bet there will be a mad rush..." must not be happening because trading looks so deceptively simple and we know that

Everyone wants to go to heaven( ie make money) , but no one wants to die ( ie spend on education).

By the time they realize the need ,if they do at all , they would have burned thru their capital.

[opportunist]

[misscrore]

"So you see skill and strategy are both sides of the same coin if one wants to win this game. You cannot have one without not having the other. What the proponent of this thread pointed out was that we harp too much on strategy when basic skills are missing in traders. That is a sad situation."


Dear Oppo ...

Liked the way you detailed ... but didnt understand where are you leading your views too ...

Are you in support of the thread's view or not ...

Basically taking the same point of skills and strategy ... you need to know to walk before you can run .... so get your discipline and money mgmt in place ... any strategy then basis your skillset will work ...

Hope I am making my point clear here