iCharts Discussions

[veerappan]

ajay each is one is having diff forms.... diff formula... diff charts methods... gulfwave wolfwave... atr gtr...eps some one is seeing... i am cing ups.... if cries then gone... bcoz of diff views market is running man....dont argue dear... how can u say anand method is wrong? u cant... similary u r getting a flow in your methods... so do u thing yours only right?

every one is right here... but time frame only diff... and how much u can loose second thing.... so just stick on to your...is it right? or

veeru
chennai boy

[ajayhkaul]

veerappan.... I am only stating that no matter what system we follow , we MUST know that it has a positive expectancy . Yes ? I hope u agree.

We know that all the different traders and their viewpoints and systems and feelings and time frames etc etc .... add up to make the 'market'. But that exactly is why only 5% ( or less) succeed .True?

No matter what system is followed, in order to succeed the person MUST know whether his system has a positive expectancy or not .And he should know that in about 50 trades conducted with that system.Else he must tweak the system or change it

Any system based on seat-of -the-pants trading is unlikely to have a statistically positive expectancy and that includes systems based on 'feel' , 'news' . You agree that most traders trade without a clear edge ?

Also - this is not to argue for the sake of argument --- it is to attract views of everyone( now you are also contributing to this discussion- which is great ) and hopefully we will all be better traders and take our trading to a higher level.

In trading , we learn everyday , don't we? What better forum than this at icharts?!

[veerappan]

No matter what system is followed...

You agree that most traders trade without a clear edge ?


number one : your words.... let it be any system ... suxus is with u ...if u follow strictly with discipline.... without using culprit mind....and mind games...

number two: your words... bcoz them only getting money ... let it be .... .... without discipline and one more u shd know at any point of time u r loss shd be what? this is very very important....

what u say?

[rk_a2003]

What is this 'MARKET IS RIGHT' 'MARKET IS SUPREME'?.I always fail to understand.

In my opinion Market is neither right nor wrong .Market is neither supreme nor worst.


Market is market that's all.It is you either right or wrong it is you either supreme or worst. That's it.

[ajayhkaul]

Golden words veerappan ! Allow me to put these down for all the readers as under :

1...Discipline ( to follow your trading plan , NO MATTER WHAT)

2...emotional control ( overcome mind games, Your mind works against you when it comes to loss or gain of MONEY ) and

3...Risk management( loss that u can take for the trade)

Obviously , the above apply only if there is a set trading plan/system that when followed with the above golden rules gives a positive result.

So a trading system that is based on 'feelings' means that emotions are involved and that breaks the rule no 2?

Hope I have covered all the points , veerappan?

[rk_a2003]

Ajay!

The 'FEEl' every one will have.We are talking about Expert 'FEEL'which is not an easy task to attain with.

You are talking about statistically positive expectancy. The Expert Feel will have a good score in that regard.That feel also will have some inherent methodology implicitly or explicitly.

Why do you feel that 'Veerappan' participation in this discussion is great? because you consider him as a rare expert.

We should agree that Veerappan Sir too have a 'Feel' of the Market. which did not come all of a sudden from the sky. It is the outcome of his decades of ongoing interactions with the market from close quarters.

'FEEL' is not an irrational obsurd thing. It do have it's objective and rational base, some times which can be explained and sometimes which can not be.

RK

[ajayhkaul]

Hi RK !

First .... NO ONE can trade the market . We can trade only our beliefs and opinions about the market. In that sense , Market is supreme since it cannot be consistently traded ! A trader only trades what he believes( right or wrong on that particular day) about the market. Since all traders have been wrong at sometime or the other, Market wins( this refers to comment from user freedom)

Second... EXPERT FEEL is distilled as follows :

1..After many years of 'testing' many methods , a trading plan emerges. ( All traders go thru this process , sometimes at great cost). If the trader survives this step and ends up with a positive expectancy system , go to step 2

2..Then the plan is followed with robotic precision( discipline) and without emotions (feelings of panic,greed...) ..There is no option to this ....This takes lots of time and more cost.The market will command its Fees.
The trading efficiency is the result of this step.

3..Once you become 'robotic' its like being in the 36th chamber of Shaolin!!! That's where u get the ' expert feel' which is the intuitive following of the system evolved from above steps in a flash. So there is a method to the feel , it doesn't fall from the sky just as u stated. But THERE IS A CLEAR SYSTEM BEING FOLLOWED. Its like driving a car .. after years of driving you get the intuitive feeling.

Now please notice ... and that's where I disagree ... the final 'feel' is the SYSTEM itself and all experts including veerappan can tell you what their system is . However, as he says , no system works without discipline etc (golden rules). That's why it is great to have him in the discussion - he can tell you exactly . My 'feeling' is based on his writings- this is factual- in various forums and not on a random 'feel'.

What Vinay wanted to know was the system or what makes anand1234 'feel' so about the market. He is obviously working with a system of 'news co-relations' and that he may not wish to reveal or is not able to formulate his system of thinking presently.Over time he may do it -see 1 above.

All rational feelings can be explained.

Or is this clairvoyance? That is also a possible system.But step 1 still applies.

Either way we are happy for him to trigger this forum!

We have come a long way on this discussion , haven't we?

[vinay28]

Looks like I have opened a pandora's box. Or should I say a can of worms? But if anand is mostly right about his predictions and if it is only because of his "feel" as rk puts it, I accept it since I have seen how people with good card luck mostly make money. They too can not explain their gut feeling for their actions. And if anand is making money with his predictions, so be it.

But I have also seen many experts in various fields who give predictions but NEVER explain logic behind them just because they are afraid of loosing their "expertise". Good for them too.

I for one has always believed that knowledge increases by sharing it and have also practiced it.

[anand1234]

hi..........

nice discusion .........keep it up for healthy knowledge..........so many word has come abt my feelings..............if u think minotely there is a science also..........wt ever I predict that will b based on newses or policies of govt. or world mkt...........i am not a person who telling something in wind..........and not a person who can dicted the mkt to go acording to him.............may b some day I would b wrong.....my prediction will b wrong.............its a pert of game......because life is big game......who knows wt is waiting tomorrow for us???

thanks
anand

[rk_a2003]

Ajay!

I must admit… that an exemplary conclusion of the discussion.

Are traders fighting the market? No trader will think of it even in dreams, every one is trying hard to go along with the market. All these Methods, TA & Strategies are to find a way to walk humbly behind the market. In that effort some times you are right and some times you are wrong when you are not at all fighting with the market where is the question of The Market always win’s, Market is right etc..etc... As you rightly said “We can trade only our beliefs and opinions about the market.” Then it is our beliefs and opinions either right or wrong.


“Market is Supreme”. This is a nice metaphor must have been coined by a great trader who find him self helpless in front of the market, and must have found a solace by saying ‘Market is Supreme’ therefore nothing wrong in getting pulverized in it.


Market is nothing but simply a place where Supply and Demand is matched. What is there so supreme in it? Trading it self is an inherent part of the market. Why should we juggle with the words like we can not trade the market?

After your brilliant conclusion of the discussion. I recollect one of my readings in philosophy. There was a great Ideological battle between Idealists and Materialists in 18th-19th century Europe. During that Ideological battle some of the Materialists argued that Ideas are secretions of the Brain.

I do have a great respect for materialists; In fact objectivity is the core foundation of the materialism. At the same time I don’t want to be a mechanical materialist.

As I already said your conclusions are exemplarily good but missing the possible complex interactions of human mind which may not be defined in a measured way.

[vinay28]

RK, I had decided to not to post anymore in this thread as I thought Anand had "explained" himself enough!!

But since you spoke about brain (and what doesn't belong to it), I feel my hand is forced. Modern research has conclusively proved that EVERYTHING we 'think" or "act" stems from our brain; even love, intimacy, bond, etc. There is no such thing as "heart".

What's more, our brain works independently based on its genetic code continuously generated over tens of thousands of years, environmental influences that we have had in our childhood (we generally call it upbringing, particularly between age of 3 and 6), the knowledge that we have gathered (and not our qualification) and our experiences.

That's why, if we are conscious of what we think or do, we sometimes wonder why or "how come" we thought or did that. Materialism is also a part of it. Nothing more easily describes this than the north-south divide that we have in india, materialistic vs. philosophical. Some other day I will pen my thoughts on this being a vast topic as it also has to do a bit with migration of man from south africa almost 1 lac years ago.

[freedom]

[freedom]

[freedom]

[rk_a2003]

Will be waiting for it Vinay!

May be you can post it under 'ChitChat' or any other forum you find suitable for it.