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stevenmat
White Belt
Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 478
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Post: #451  Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| just wanted to make a point here..which is that a lot of ppl who have just started trading/investing in stocks don't know much..thats true..but tell me something..how will they increase their knowledge...icici direct offers classroom training for 5k and above..who is going to do that... i work in L&T and i know quite alot of people(normal salaried employees) who have 5lk+ portfolio all running on huge loss (they might have recovered some of it in the recent run)..some ppl i speak to they dont even know limit orders etc..i dont blame them... there is no easy system in india for people to gain knowledge in equity/fixed income.. but on the contrary if a large part of the public came to participate in stocks then i think we would be able to see a little more stable market.. FIIs like fooling us alot...we can avoid that part atleast... |
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vinst
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 3303
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| Post: #452 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| stevenmat wrote: | | just wanted to make a point here..which is that a lot of ppl who have just started trading/investing in stocks don't know much..thats true..but tell me something..how will they increase their knowledge...icici direct offers classroom training for 5k and above..who is going to do that... i work in L&T and i know quite alot of people(normal salaried employees) who have 5lk+ portfolio all running on huge loss (they might have recovered some of it in the recent run)..some ppl i speak to they dont even know limit orders etc..i dont blame them... there is no easy system in india for people to gain knowledge in equity/fixed income.. but on the contrary if a large part of the public came to participate in stocks then i think we would be able to see a little more stable market.. FIIs like fooling us alot...we can avoid that part atleast... |
one more fallacy....
Which country would you consider to have educated small investors?
Look at the variation in index of that country, it'd be in no way less volatile than India. Then look at individual stock prices, they'd be in no way less 'manipulated' than in india. Amount of information doesn't make prices less volatile, it makes them more volatile. One can look at USA, UK, Germany, HongKong, Singapore, Brazil...endless.
Take your example and we can discuss more.
People running portfolio in loss (I am not justifying that one should hold loss): Many times I have read praises of people in forums similar to these, that so and so held the position even in great loss finally to come out as a big gainer. What about those utterances?
At the end, there are always new people entering each business (e.g. stock trading/investing) and many lose in businesses undertaken. As long as humanity is there, new entrants would be there. They'd learn over a period of time. That way, trading is no different from any other thing. It's just natural that there are losses on the way. No one to be blamed for that except the trader himself/herself. No amount of education is a done thing. It needs to be continuously there. incentives need to be continuously there (only names change).
So why blame the govt and corner it for offering tax incentive for small investors. In any case, most of these applications are put in by moneyed (read: experienced and probably crooks) people in the disguise of small investors. |
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ajayhkaul
Yellow Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 866
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| Post: #453 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| stevenmat wrote: | | just wanted to make a point here..which is that a lot of ppl who have just started trading/investing in stocks don't know much..thats true..but tell me something..how will they increase their knowledge...icici direct offers classroom training for 5k and above..who is going to do that... i work in L&T and i know quite alot of people(normal salaried employees) who have 5lk+ portfolio all running on huge loss (they might have recovered some of it in the recent run)..some ppl i speak to they dont even know limit orders etc..i dont blame them... there is no easy system in india for people to gain knowledge in equity/fixed income.. but on the contrary if a large part of the public came to participate in stocks then i think we would be able to see a little more stable market.. FIIs like fooling us alot...we can avoid that part atleast... |
Imagine people lose lakhs ,but find 5k too much for training/learning!
Actually , it looks simple , but we know that it is not. They just follow others (Asking thy neighbour is a low cost way of propagating information...as per vinst) and start buying after opening a demat account. Soon they are in the red.
Then even 5k looks a large amount ! why should trading be unlike any other profession/business ? Education is a must !
if the govt doesn;t offer anything for years, it is criticized for not doing anything to bring small investors to market. If it does offer some concession, it is branded like 'forcing' or like inviting lambs to be slaughtered. ...vinst '
So the question is whether the small investor is ready for equities . QED |
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ajayhkaul
Yellow Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 866
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| Post: #454 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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At the end, there are always new people entering each business (e.g. stock trading/investing) and many lose in businesses undertaken. As long as humanity is there, new entrants would be there. They'd learn over a period of time. That way, trading is no different from any other thing. It's just natural that there are losses on the way. No one to be blamed for that except the trader himself/herself. No amount of education is a done thing. It needs to be continuously there. incentives need to be continuously there (only names change).
So why blame the govt and corner it for offering tax incentive for small investors. In any case, most of these applications are put in by moneyed (read: experienced and probably crooks) people in the disguise of small investors. Vinst
You miss the point vinst..... basic education(school etc is compulsory) but acquiring FIQ is not. Govt is not responsible for your FIQ in any country. So it has to acquired on your own , beyond whatever education one has.
I can understand if this 'tax /incentive' is not spoken in the same breath as ...'people are using their savings to buy gold ,THEY SHOULD BUY STOCKS!'(actual comment by our FM).
Why this from FM ? Indians are gold intensive for generations ...why move them to paper assets? we have to see what unravels ....
I have no issues with crooks acquiring stocks ! |
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vinst
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 3303
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| Post: #455 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ajayhkaul wrote: | At the end, there are always new people entering each business (e.g. stock trading/investing) and many lose in businesses undertaken. As long as humanity is there, new entrants would be there. They'd learn over a period of time. That way, trading is no different from any other thing. It's just natural that there are losses on the way. No one to be blamed for that except the trader himself/herself. No amount of education is a done thing. It needs to be continuously there. incentives need to be continuously there (only names change).
So why blame the govt and corner it for offering tax incentive for small investors. In any case, most of these applications are put in by moneyed (read: experienced and probably crooks) people in the disguise of small investors. Vinst
You miss the point vinst..... basic education(school etc is compulsory) but acquiring FIQ is not. Govt is not responsible for your FIQ in any country. So it has to acquired on your own , beyond whatever education one has.
I can understand if this 'tax /incentive' is not spoken in the same breath as ...'people are using their savings to buy gold ,THEY SHOULD BUY STOCKS!'(actual comment by our FM).
Why this from FM ? Indians are gold intensive for generations ...why move them to paper assets? we have to see what unravels ....
I have no issues with crooks acquiring stocks ! |
Ah..! The light. FM saying that people should buy stocks instead of Gold has created the problem.
Ajay, please don't worry. Nobody listens to FM as attentively as you did  . This is proven since generations of Gold buying ! |
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ajayhkaul
Yellow Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 866
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| Post: #456 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Nobody listens to FM as attentively as you did . This is proven since generations of Gold buying !
Nobody ? really ? or is it just you ? 
Anyways , I think you miss the point( the big picture ) here completely, vinst.
For starters , figure out why government does not want you to hold more gold( the duty has been increased on gold in this budget plus there is some funny tax on it)..... what the public will actually do ultimately , we will see during the year .
On the contrary the chinese government is encouraging their junta to 'go go gold'.
Ud. comprende ? |
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ajayhkaul
Yellow Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 866
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| Post: #457 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ajayhkaul wrote: | 1...From the budget , the FY 13 govt disinvestment target is 30,000 crore.
Also ,
2...FM said in an interview that people save money and buy gold ( which does not help the equity markets!) so they should buy equities( thats why the tax exemption on 50000Rs of equity investment)
3..They are doing other things to make gold expensive to buy/keep.
( annually Indians buy huge quantities of gold , and this is to trick them into buying equities. Imagine a bride or groom garlanded with share certificates !)
I see a stealth link here.They are forcing people to buy equities.
Imagine that the salaried class starts to buy equities instead of gold for tax purposes -- how big is this going to be ?
Who will buy the govt stake in psu's? LIC again? After the ONGC fiasco , the bitter pill will be shoved down public throat ? (eg buy ONGC/sail/mmtc and get tax rebate?)
Also ,more serious , is this an exit strategy for FII? If so , expect the market to rise and rise till all the ducks(public) are in and distribution starts.
Am I imagining things?
Time will tell .... till then view with suspicion all the equity purchase schemes/ideas thrown at the public. |
We have probably ONE answer ( R Jag of FIRSTPOST.... see givemegold's post for details)
....'But the other reason why public sector companies can consider themselves particularly unlucky is a decision which allows public sector companies to invest in other public sector companies, reports the Business Standard. This sounds like a great liberalisation, but any bets this provision will be used to make one public sector company buy shares of another from the government? If LIC is pressured to buy ONGC, isn’t it probable that of it needs more money, Coal India or ONGC will be asked to buy shares of some oil marketing companies or power plants to give the government more money through disinvestment?'....
"....The Life Insurance Corporation, which was egged on to buy ONGC shares in the last share sale, is sitting on market losses of over Rs 1,000 crore because it bought the shares at a premium. The FM can also be said to have fooled LIC into buying ONGC shares when it knew all along that it was planning to impose an additional cess that would make ONGC shares cheaper after the budget....."
Man Mukherji Montek ....Market Master Minds
Last edited by ajayhkaul on Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ajayhkaul
Yellow Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 866
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| Post: #458 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:22 am Post subject: |
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Guys consider these axioms : most of you know them , so its for those who are on the journey to the holy grail !
Market axiom:
A bull market tries to take AS FEW people along for the ride as possible.
Skepticism is exactly what the bull wants. It sometimes acts like a bear to scare people away.
Example ? Gold and Silver currently.
Similarly...
A bear market tries to take AS MANY people along for the ride as possible.
The bear disguises itself as a bull, keeps offering glimpses of hope. Doesn't that sound a bit like how the stock market is behaving...?[i][/b] |
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vinst
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 3303
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| Post: #459 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| ajayhkaul wrote: | Nobody listens to FM as attentively as you did . This is proven since generations of Gold buying !
Nobody ? really ? or is it just you ?
Anyways , I think you miss the point( the big picture ) here completely, vinst.
For starters , figure out why government does not want you to hold more gold( the duty has been increased on gold in this budget plus there is some funny tax on it)..... what the public will actually do ultimately , we will see during the year .
On the contrary the chinese government is encouraging their junta to 'go go gold'.
Ud. comprende ? |
One more follower of china here?
For 2% duty increase, again , no body is bothered.
And I repeat that nobody is bothered about FM saying Indians should buy this or that. People will do what they want, not what FM asks them to buy. |
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ajayhkaul
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Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 866
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psalm
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Joined: 12 Nov 2011
Posts: 5368
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ajayhkaul
Yellow Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 866
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| Post: #462 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the links,psalm.
"One of the primary drivers of the current account deficit has been the growth of almost 50% in imports of gold and other precious metals in the first three quarters of this year," Mukherjee said, in a budget aimed at trimming the deficit.
The country imported a record 969 tonne of gold in 2011. |
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ajayhkaul
Yellow Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 866
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| Post: #463 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:53 am Post subject: |
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I wonder how many noticed this( highlighted) :
"....Let's say you're in debt. And you need money to pay the interest on that debt. But you can't get enough banks to lend you the money you need. So you head off to the printer and have him run off copies of all the money you need to lend it to yourself to make the payments on your loans.
It's absurd when you think about it. And this past week the country of Iceland agreed. Iceland decided to abandon its own currency and instead choose someone else's. So they chose the U.S. dollar, the reserve currency, right? Wrong. They chose the Canadian dollar.
The world is slowly waking up to the Fed's scam, and it's been reflected in the price of gold |
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pkholla
Black Belt
Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Posts: 2890
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| Post: #464 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| psalm wrote: | | duty imposed on God: |
Sam: quite right, as Churchill said, these Congresswale will impose tax on everything incl. air, water and GOD. Expect a tax demand on Tirupati and Ayyappa temples next
rgds prakash holla |
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psalm
Black Belt
Joined: 12 Nov 2011
Posts: 5368
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| Post: #465 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| pkholla wrote: | | psalm wrote: | | duty imposed on God: |
Sam: quite right, as Churchill said, these Congresswale will impose tax on everything incl. air, water and GOD. Expect a tax demand on Tirupati and Ayyappa temples next
rgds prakash holla |
OH MY GOLD....hehehehe...sorry for the typo... |
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